Thoughts on Fangirl
Mar. 20th, 2016 11:06 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cyanmnemosyneAt first this was going to be a comment on
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ikel89's readthrough, but then, uh .... *waves downward* that happened. So it gets its own post. :D I may figure this LJ thing out yet ...
On the whole I quite enjoyed this book! It was a nice, breezy read; most of the drama was not of the "unnecessary bullshit" variety, the characters themselves were mostly fun, and of course who doesn't like some quality fandom / fanfic nostalgia :DDD
I did find that the closer I thought about it when trying to pull together these bullet points, the less impressed I was by some of the author's narrative choices. But eh, it was still a fun read, and I'm still glad I read it. :D (I suspect I'll also be glad to have read it before Carry On, but - I'll see how I feel after I read Carry On. :D)
Onward to impressions!
* I also struggled with Cath's POV in the beginning, before she started stabilizing. I've got just enough anxiety issues that I was able to sympathize with some of what she was going through (in particular: I was also grumpy about the protein bars, ESPECIALLY after she'd been to the other cafeteria with Wren -- but her mentioning that it had become this giant anxiety "block" made perfect sense, once we got to that part).
* BUT her anxiety issues also seemed ... strangely inconsistent in ways that irritated me? Like, she'd make a point of how she always took basically the same path, which was a familiar pattern for me -- but then she just randomly wanders around the English
building enough to find a nice place to hang out behind it? Breaking anxiety-hardened habits doesn't "just happen" in my experience - there's always some significant mental tax involved. Same with "oh I just randomly decided to wander around downtown Lincoln because I had the time and why not - oh hey look there's Levi's Starbucks!" (Especially with the editor part of my brain pointing out that both were throwaway scenes meant to push the plot forward and excuse you, if you're going to make anxiety such a core part of the story DON'T IGNORE IT BECAUSE IT'S CONVENIENT TO THE PLOT)
* WHO REACHES COLLEGE WITHOUT REALIZING IT'S INAPPROPRIATE TO TURN FANFIC IN FOR A CLASS ASSIGNMENT *howls in anguish* Like, when she initially mentioned that she'd written something from Baz's POV, I though she meant a character LIKE Baz? Because I just couldn't believe she'd do that. whyyyyyyyyy. And okay, yes I enjoyed the conversations with the professor that resulted, but at least, like. Have it be an assignment to give her a sample of what you feel is your best work! or something! that is not clearly supposed to be an original story!
* Okay enough complaining about Cath. :DD When I wasn't howling in her general direction, I was generally satisfied with her as a narrator - lots of old fond fanfic writing feelings to latch on to, and it's hard to stay too grumpy at someone who enjoys sitting in the cafeteria and making fun of people with Reagan. <3
* Lots of laughing at the terrible Drarry-ness of Simon/Baz, even though back in my HP days I was mostly reading other things, so I don't have a whole lot of first-hand experience. :D
* AGREED that Levi's crush on Penelope is cute. :D I was also deeply pleased by the throwaway line about Cath reading Penelope/Agatha fic in her downtime. :DD I was never as pointed about avoiding other fics when working on my two big projects, but there were definitely times working on this latest project when I couldn't handle the distraction of another author's take on the characters, so the urge was definitely familiar. :P
* LEVI <3 REAGAN <3 That is all.
* No but in general, every scene with Reagan in it was great. Not sure I'd buy into a stable OT3 since I feel like Reagan would feel tied down in that situation, but I'd be completely on board with maybe a looser poly arrangement where she drops in when she's in the mood for dealing with kittens who have gotten their heads stuck in Kleenex boxes :') -- and then flits away again when she gets distracted by some other guy's biceps. :D
* Every scene with Levi in it is also great <3 I really appreciated how even their harder conversations were just very ... nice?
There was drama, but it was all understandable drama, and it all got resolved in as reasonable a fashion as possible. And even though he's almost always going out of his way to be nice to people, it's also clear that he's a person too - he has a life, he gets mad sometimes, he might have a tendency to drop everything for Cath, but it's clearly shown to be a general character trait of his that's just exacerbated by his feelings for her, not The World Revolves Around The Protagonist syndrome, and sometimes it does actually come back to bite him. (I was really glad we got to see him upset about doing so badly on that one test.)* Seriously tho, did Cath have to be the jealous type? -_- Especially since it didn't actually have a significant impact on the story, so it felt like it was just there because ... idk, of course the insecure anxious girl is a jealous type? -_-
* And okay, actually, I was not terribly moved by their make-out scenes. Like, good for you, good for him, can we get back to the fan meta now? -_- (But hey, lukewarm is still more interest than I've invested in a canon het relationship in a while, so. :D)
* Also generally agreed re: Wren. I was not terribly invested in her existence, especially since she spent a large chunk of the story basically only show up to distract from more interesting things with obnoxious drama. Plus, her bratty unrepentance after her hospitalization seemed really over-the-top? And then in the spring semester, the way she suddenly switched back to pre-college attitudes + some sadness about everything she'd missed the rest of the year also felt ... off. Tbh I didn't care a whole lot (see: not terribly invested :P) but yes, it would have been nice to see something less cliche from her arc.
* I LOVED CATH'S DAD. His scenes were also some of my favorite scenes. Cath and him, especially, were just so WARM, and supportive of each other. I don't have any experience either with bipolar or that sort of broken home, so I can't say anything to the accuracy or lack thereof of the depiction, but that warmth, the humor - sometimes illness-related, sometimes not - the level of *honesty* they had with each other, was really a treat for me to read, and I was always super pleased when I realized I was heading into a section involving their family.
* Also chiming in with my agreement re: Laura and being glad that Cath didn't have an Important Life Lesson about Learning To Forgive. (I thought it very interesting towards the end when we saw that Wren wasn't really that involved with her life, either - just that she was OK with that shallow bond in a way that Cath wasn't.) I was also, actually, glad that their dad didn't seem to appreciably reconcile with her, either - and that he was shown as not wanting to have to deal with it, and actually not having to.
* I was actually surprisingly fond of Professor Piper, too! Obviously I don't agree with her attitudes towards fanfiction :D (except insofar as it involves not turning one in for a homework assignment because SERIOUSLY WHO DOES THAT), but in general I feel like she was incredibly encouraging and supportive (insofar as Cath allowed her to be -_-). I think that being a longtime fanfic writer who's been trying to branch out into original fic, myself, gave me additional appreciation for their conversation about making that jump -- and a lot of appreciation just for the existence of that conversation.
* Also as someone who *also* recently finished a large fanfic project that took me over two years to write, I found myself laughing and sympathizing in equal measure at Cath's twitchiness about getting the endgame JUST RIGHT for EVERYONE and what if EVERYONE HATES IT.
* That said, that just made it additionally irritating that we never find out for sure whether she met her self-imposed deadline or not! DO YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT DEADLINES ARE. ESPECIALLY SELF-IMPOSED ONES. DO YOU.
* The discussion about "does Cath kill Baz off or not" irritated me. Why would she do thaaaaaaat. Especially when it was clearly a plot twist she'd come up with because it was too hard to come up with something more satisfying, not something she'd been intending / building towards all along. (I also get the feeling that the entire discussion was there to attempt to set up a meta moral about how happy endings are harder, but more satisfying, than giving up. :P No! This is a story about writing fanfic! Have her briefly consider the notion, throw it out because it's bullshit counter to the entire point of her story thus far, and show the process of her working towards the actual ending!)
* ... I'm also terribly sad that we didn't get to see the "canon is doing it wrong" fallout of the final book in a series coming out in the presence of excellent fanfics. So many missed opportunities for "I'm not bitter, she said bitterly, with a bitter expression." :') (... Had a minor existential crisis when I was disappointed by Order of the Phoenix after spending years reading 5th year fics? Me? noooooo. :)))
* That said, the cuddling and reading scene with Levi giggling at gay subtext was alllllmost cute enough to make up for it. Cath has taught him so well. :')
*
ikel89 and hamsterwoman both brought up being surprised that a BNF like Cath didn't have any actual fandom friends (except her European beta, I guess?), but I actually didn't notice that at all while reading - I think because it actually mapped pretty closely to my experience as author of a moderately popular HP fic (and extreme introvert): people would comment, and I'd reply to the comments at the end of each chapter (until ff.net forbade it -_-), but I was afraid of Really Interacting With People On The Internet, so I made maybe ... one fandom friend from the process? And that withered away after a few months. (... And then I came back to fandom post-college and tripped straight into the AO3/Tumblr set and never looked back :D)
That said, context makes it sound like Cath was having conversations with her fans, in which case -- yeah, I'd have expected at least a few fandom friends.
* Nick the hipster Hemingway. :') I really enjoyed his cowriting scenes with Cath - they were giving her a sense of place and validation that she very clearly needed, and they were fun and warm. (Plus, what's not to like about poking a bit of fun at over-the-top "literary" writing? :D)
But then he submitted their cowritten story as his final project and I noped out. I hadn't actually realized just how hard I'd noped out until I hit the resolution scene with him near the end of the book and wasn't initially able to summon more of a reaction than "oh. go you tying up loose ends, I guess. Can we get back to the characters I care about now?"
I agree that his resolution seems more like authorial punishment than character-perpetuated. (I can somewhat see Cath refusing because she just Can't Deal, and not seeing the pettiness, but I also am not entirely sure I buy Nick just going "oh ok" and disappearing forever, so I feel like she'd eventually notice, feel guilt about being petty, and let the coauthorship go through. Unless Levi "disappeared" him or something lol.) I think I just didn't care as much as
ikel89 and hamsterwoman because I noped so hard out of his storyline that I couldn't be bothered to care how it ended, either? :D
Though after chatting with
ikel89 some, I did manage to pinpoint the main source of my dissatisfaction: not just that the resolution was a petty one, but that I'm not convinced Nick actually learned anything other than that Cath is kind of petty (and he doesn't want to be alone in a dark alleyway with any of her friends). So it wasn't even an *effective* resolution.
I think what I'd like to have seen - and what would have brought me a lot closer to reconciling with him, too - would be something more along the lines of:
- Nick gets selected for the magazine, grows a conscience, and comes to Cath to offer the coauthorship of his own free will
- At some point when Cath is actually alone, so that she doesn't have all her friends around being curious and judging Nick
- She says she doesn't want it
- ??? Somehow this develops into an actual conversation about how shitty the entire situation made her feel, probably by way of him saying something so outrageously obnoxious that she starts yelling, because I think her default response would otherwise be to shut down and end the conversation
- At some point he actually apologizes because he finally GETS how shitty a move it was
- Tentative overtures to maybe write together again sometime
- Cath probably rejects it because she's busy (*coughwithLevi*) but in a "maybe at some point" sort of way. (I can't really see her trusting him enough to cowrite anything for a long time yet, but they could hang out together in the library and she could disturb his zen with her keyboard noises :D)
- Levi etc. arrive near the end of the conversation so that we can still have the fun "I can be jealous if you want me to :DDD" moment
- Nick goes on to idk publish with sole authorship but mention her editing help in his author blurb or something.
... But despite all my quibbles, I did genuinely enjoy this book. :D I'm looking forward to reading Carry On (... at some point. soonish.), getting to know the Simon Snow characters more, and maybe finally having an informed opinion in the Fangirl/Carry On reading order debate.
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Date: 2016-03-21 07:42 am (UTC)the summary of every discussion ever xD <3
I did find that the closer I thought about it when trying to pull together these bullet points, the less impressed I was by some of the author's narrative choices
*nods* I know what you mean, except in my case the distance between the breezy read and raised eyebrow was shorter, probably, as I already went into Fangirl with a clear bias towards Carry On :') This is not CP-levels of disappointment, as there hasn't been anything bigger than "whee breezy read and a context to another book I liked" going on, but yes. The scepticism for arcs concerning Wren, Nick, ending - all there and growing.
I leave the anxiety consistency discussion with a seaweed gestures, as I really don't understand firsthand how it works. But it did seem weird to me how easily she dropped by Starbucks when cafeteria was such a terrible chore. Maybe it's some social pecking order thing I don't understand? Cafeteria more important for reasons of being a campus space? And Starbucks is more anonymous?.. (in the same campus space...)
WHO REACHES COLLEGE WITHOUT REALIZING IT'S INAPPROPRIATE TO TURN FANFIC IN FOR A CLASS ASSIGNMENT *howls in anguish*
still amused by your despair at that but yes :')
I heartily (geddit?:DD) approve of your ot3 scenario! I could totally buy it! :D
I thought you'd have things to say on Carry on the fic based on your own experience, and huh, interesting re: interaction similarities. Maybe it's the age thing? On the author's part?
Prof Piper was as likable as you could expect an adult in charge of Creative Writing who wrote about rural Nebraska (or whatever she wrote about) to be, tbh. But one more thing that made me raise eyebrows was her attitude for Nick - it seemed very inconsistent. Hire-fire-face dilemmas-wut? It seemed to me she just preferred Cath - unless, of course, there were earlier conversations where Nick proved to be an utter jerk who didn't listen to reason. (A bit like he bulldozed his way through conversation with Cath about submitting their coauthored story). But that would have required more coverage of this arc, which we didn't get.
Cath-Levi makeouts were mildly interesting, because I liked the all hands-all mouth thing going on, and Levi was so charming about everything!
DO YOU KNOW HOW IMPORTANT DEADLINES ARE. ESPECIALLY SELF-IMPOSED ONES. DO YOU.
:D :D :D :') :') :')
LOL at HP5 trauma, but agreed re:disappointment at not getting any information about either her fic's resolution or the book's. Open ending mostly worked to drive home the point of how it wasn't really important, to my understanding.
*nods* to alternative Nick arc suggestion, but we've talked about that, so this nod is for posterity :D
(READ CARRY ON!!)
in which you learn more about my bzyki than you probably wanted to know :')
Date: 2016-03-21 09:10 am (UTC)*nods* That's about where I am as well. Though to be fair, even my quibbles I don't think it messed up nearly as badly as CP3. :D
But it did seem weird to me how easily she dropped by Starbucks when cafeteria was such a terrible chore.
Well, this is all speculation based on my own personal experience, which means I feel like I ought to make a handwavy "never officially diagnosed, etc." disclaimer, but what really clicked for me was her describing the cafeteria thing as a block.
Like, sometimes when I get in really bad spots (which hasn't been in a while, thankfully), I'll get kind of ... locked in? To a pattern that I logically know doesn't make much sense, but I get SO TWITCHY even thinking about breaking it that sometimes it feels like it makes more sense to continue with the pattern than to make myself break it and suffer through the attendant OMG BUT WHAT IFFFFF storm until my anxiety readjusts to the new normal and calms back down.
I mean, I'm also stubborn as hell, so if I catch myself in a pattern that I think is ragingly dumb (like, say, eating protein bars because I'm afraid of the cafeteria), my usual response is to be like FUCK YOU ANXIETY UR NOT THE BOSS OF ME, but I can still understand the urge.
(The other thing that resonated with me is her observation that the longer she's stuck to a pattern, the harder it is to break out of.)
So come to think of it, I think I'd have been completely on board with the characterization of the protein bar thing if she'd done more negative self-talk on the page? Like "I know this is dumb and unhealthy, but one more day won't hurt too much, and I'll totally go to the cafe tomorrow" or something.
And all of the above is also why the Starbucks / English building thing just really stuck out to me.
Especially that spot behind the English building. Especially since I think it was only a few pages after her thinking to herself about how she'd fallen into a very specific pattern of going to class + student union + dorm and that was it. Which sounded an awful lot like another anxiety pattern to me.
And you ... you don't get to have a settled anxiety pattern and then break it by randomly deciding to hang out somewhere unless (a) you manage to trick the pattern into accepting it or (b) you bulldoze through with FUCK YOU ANXIETY UR NOT THE BOSS OF ME, and from what I recall we didn't really see either of those options, she was just like ... "oh yeah, and there's this nice spot I found because I was randomly wandering around the building". -_-
Starbucks, I was more on the fence about, since that was late enough in the semester and things were in a good enough spot in general that I could see her having ... eased up on the anxiety somewhat? And also, yeah, the anonymity could have been a factor, too - I was less concerned with the Starbucks itself than the "oh I'll just wander around Lincoln for fun" excuse for the scene itself. I can come up with excuses (like, going home was already enough of a break in the pattern that, combined with the eased-up anxiety, made it not seem like as big a deal as it always had before?) but I'd still like to have seen more of the explicit negotiation process on the page.
... I mean, since we get to see so much of the rest of her internal monologue anyway. :D
And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-03-21 09:13 am (UTC)I think if she "grew up" fandom-wise in the ff.net era (or pre-internet), that could definitely help explain the lack of close fandom friends - especially if she was similarly twitchy about the internet being full of Axe Murderers Who Will Steal Your Credit Cards or whatever XD
... Though now I'm really wondering about that European beta who was mentioned, like, twice ......
But one more thing that made me raise eyebrows was her attitude for Nick - it seemed very inconsistent.
YES! Thank you for reminding me. That was the other thing that bugged me about the situation with Nick. (I think we discussed this yesterday? idk)
If she was aware enough of Cath's contribution to Nick's story to ask her about it at the beginning of the story, WHY MAKE HIM HER TA? Especially if she had no compunction about firing him later for ??? something she had strong suspicions about already ????
And, like, doesn't she have any students in higher level classes to be her TAs? Why was Nick even an option? idk
Her preference for Cath does smell somewhat of Protagonist-Centered Universe, but I also kind of got the impression that she was that sort of ... warm and shiny at all of her students? Or at least the ones she thought had potential? So her bending over backwards for Cath didn't stick out to me too much.
But yeah, agreed that this arc would have needed more coverage in order to clarify ... basically everything. :P
Levi was so charming about everything!
OK, I can definitely agree with that. :D best part of every scene he was in tbh. Except the scenes that also had Reagan in them. :DD
Open ending mostly worked to drive home the point of how it wasn't really important, to my understanding.
BUT IT ISSSSSS THOOOOOOO. :'D
(READ CARRY ON!!)
:D :D :D
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-03-21 05:16 pm (UTC)I think the difference with Cath would be, she's always had an external stimulus (Wren) to be that voice that both understands her and will bossily get her to do/not do stuff. So it makes sense to me that she could get to the point of college without knowing how to do this herself (and in effect Reagan kind of takes over the Wren role there at first, which also makes sense).
But this still leaves open the primary question of inconsistency about her anxiety.
WHY MAKE HIM HER TA? Especially if she had no compunction about firing him later for ??? something she had strong suspicions about already ????
I was confused by the TA mentions, but the handwavy explanation I gave myself is that Piper must have known Nick from a previous (lower div) class, probably the one he was TAing for right now after doing well in it (why she'd have an undergrad TAing rather than a grad student I'm not really sure, but I have been an undergard TA in a uni class (where there was no specific grad program in that particular thing, though), and have been approached to TA for an English class as an undergrad, so I guess it happens? Probably undergrads can be paid less than grad students is why... \reality-driven considerations)
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-03-23 03:04 am (UTC)But this still leaves open the primary question of inconsistency about her anxiety.
*nods* At this point I'm not sure we'll reach a more satisfying answer than "because the plot said so". :P Though your point below about strangers being less "scary" sometimes than people you see regularly is also a good one. (It's difficult for me to parse how much of Cath's initial state was "fear of strangers" vs "fear of currently-strangers who will still be around after I RUIN EVERYTHING", but I'd be willing to buy it being more the latter.)
the handwavy explanation I gave myself is that Piper must have known Nick from a previous (lower div) class
Ohhhhh good point. Haha despite the "wait, you're a freshman?" commentary, it had somehow completely passed me by that he was probably at least a junior. :') I'd be willing to buy that explanation - it also means she'd be more familiar with Nick's writing style, and thus that Cath's modifications to it would have been even more noticeable.
I have been an undergrad TA in a uni class
So have I, actually! And in my case, it was actually pretty much exactly this (proposed) situation - the prof got a couple of previous students of the class to TA the current year. (... Just, comp sci instead of English. :D)
\reality-driven considerations
Ewwwww, who dripped this reality on my shiny YA? :'D
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-03-23 08:05 pm (UTC)I think the was pretty true for me, also. Although the external stimulus thing I do understand pretty well; while I do not subsist on protein bars left to my own devices, I definitely benefit from having someone around me who will act as the "engine", as Wren does for Cath before all this started.
"fear of currently-strangers who will still be around after I RUIN EVERYTHING",
LOL, that's a perfect way of summarizing the way in which random passing-through strangers are different from the kind you meet when you start college.
Personally, I find situations like new class / party where I don't know most people much more stressful than either gatherings where I do already know most people or gatherings of people I'm never likely to see again (jury duty, plane full of strangers, etc.), because my brain does this complicated take in data on new person(s) - analyze data - determine optimum way to behave with new person(s), which is exhausting when there are multiple new people to analyze and optimize for. But with passing-through strangers it doesn't matter if I get it "right", since I will never see them again, so those functions just turn off, I guess, or work on a lower setting or something. I have no idea if other people's brains, let alone Cath's, work in a similar way, but that's why the "fear of currently-strangers who will still be around after I RUIN EVERYTHING" made sense to me for her.
it also means she'd be more familiar with Nick's writing style, and thus that Cath's modifications to it would have been even more noticeable.
Oh, good point! That would definitely make sense, since Nick and Cath had been writing together from the start in that class.
Just, comp sci instead of English. :D
Oh, you're a comp sci person? cool! :) I was TA'ing for a technical writing class that I'd taken the year before, but I can't remember if the prof approached me or I him. I'd kind of been hanging out in his office for awhile at that point; he was all alone in the wilds of the College of Chemistry and didn't get to talk much about literature, and I needed someone to complain to about my pretentious English Lit TAs and classmates (I was doing an engineering major with a minor in Renaissance Lit -- so that line of Cath's, when she's thinking about changing her major, really cracked me up.)
Ewwwww, who dripped this reality on my shiny YA? :'D
*snerk*
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-03-28 03:46 am (UTC)Oh, it's definitely not just you and Cath. :D
Parties are interesting, though ... Once they hit a certain size (I'm thinking things like large-scale office Christmas parties), they tend to get filed in my stress levels under the "group of strangers I'll never see again" setting.
Still exhausting, but I think more just I find aimlessly milling around and half-heartedly attempting to talk to people I don't know well about small-talk level subjects to be exhausting. :D
Oh, you're a comp sci person? cool! :)
Weeeeelll technically I got my degree in electrical engineering with a computer engineering focus. :D (I like to call it "the path that let me skip out on a bunch of CS theory courses I didn't care about" ;) )
he was all alone in the wilds of the College of Chemistry and didn't get to talk much about literature, and I needed someone to complain to about my pretentious English Lit TAs and classmates
Sounds like an excellent basis for friendship! :DDD
In my case, I'm guessing the prof approached me based on the fact that I was basically allergic to asking professors for anything for most of my college career. :P Who knows, though, it might have been the result of one of my handful of determined attempts to Change Myself And Become More Outgoing. :')
What sort of engineering? And what does the Renaissance lit minor entail? (I mostly avoided humanities courses in college, a decision that these days I vaguely regret, given how interesting I find both discussing books and history-as-taught-by-Tumblr-and-Wikipedia :D)
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-03-28 04:05 am (UTC)Hmm, that might actually be true for me, too. I do think I find them less stressful, possibly because I assume people are less likely to be paying attention to me when there are so many other people around...
I got my degree in electrical engineering with a computer engineering focus. :D (I like to call it "the path that let me skip out on a bunch of CS theory courses I didn't care about" ;)
Gotcha! Mind if I ask where? (though totally cool if you'd rather not mention in an unlocked post / answer a nosy stranger :) I'm curious because a lot of my friends went the EECS/COEN route, especially as we went to school next door to Silicon Valley. I mostly have no regrets about NOT choosing that path, even though it turned out I really enjoy the little bit of coding I've had to do in the course of my other classes (not electrical engineering, though. The less of that the better! :P -- sorry! my dad's an electrical engineer, but I was very clear on that being NOT a thing I ever wanted to do) but it would definitely offer possibilities for shortening my commute if I had... :P
What sort of engineering? And what does the Renaissance lit minor entail?
Chemical Engineering (which I picked basically on the logic of "hey, I really liked chemistry in AP Chem" + "engineering sounds more practical?" and ended up loving a whole lot even though it's actually not all that much like chemistry... or other kinds of engineering.
I had these lofty plans to double-major in ChemE and English, and got two required lower div classes into an English Major before I realized that in order to complete the major I'd have to 1) take the end of the lower div sequence which was 20th century lit and that sounded UNBELIEVABLY tedious and 2) take a junior and senior seminar which was code for "courses on some professor's pet topic" and 3) I'd have to take them with actual English majors, who were driving me increasingly nuts with their pretentiousness. So I bailed on the major and just kept taking classes that actually interested me -- Folklore as Literature, Medieval Lit, Milton, Metaphysical Poets (because the Milton prof was teaching that class and he was AMAZING), and at the beginning of senior year I looked at my English credits and realized that I was one class short of an English minor, and my concentration matched Renaissance Lit closest (at my school it was a concentrtion within the English department, rather than its own thing), so all I had to do was take one class specifically tailored to Renaissance Lit and I could get my minor, so I did.
Cath's "sonnets and Christ imagery" crack is actually pretty spot on :P Between Milton and, like, John Donne, there is A LOT of Christ imagery. Also sonnets... But it's actually a very neat period -- lots of inventiveness and crazy stuff about parts of the world the Europeans were still getting to know.
BTW, I realized at some point along the way that you were the person who introduced
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-04-01 09:34 am (UTC)*nods* This is likely part of it for me, too. (I keep thinking I'm mostly over my shyness in front of crowds, but then whenever I actually have to speak in front of people I spontaneously combust sooo ... :D)
Gotcha! Mind if I ask where? (though totally cool if you'd rather not mention in an unlocked post / answer a nosy stranger :)
Haha, in deference to the part of me that still remembers being a wide-eyed teen afraid of Posting Public Stuff On The Internets, I'll just say that it was a smallish private uni in Texas. :)
I do have several friends who went to uni in the Bay Area, and it's always seemed like a nice place the times I've visited. :)
sorry! my dad's an electrical engineer, but I was very clear on that being NOT a thing I ever wanted to do
Hahaha, tbh I like coding a LOT more than more "typical" EE jobs, too. :)
In my case I initially wanted to go into physics, but my dad sat me down and pointed out that he'd gotten his degrees in physics, and the two real routes for that were academia (which I was pretty sure I didn't want to do) and being an engineer. So I might as well start out in engineering.
Turns out I make a much happier engineer than pure scientist, anyway, so I'm quite glad to have taken that advice. :D
Chemical Engineering (which I picked basically on the logic of "hey, I really liked chemistry in AP Chem" + "engineering sounds more practical?" and ended up loving a whole lot even though it's actually not all that much like chemistry... or other kinds of engineering.
Hahaha I was actually considering going into ChemE, too! (For ... I think pretty similar reasons. -_-)
I ended up taking the intro EE and ChemE classes in the same semester. EE kicked my ass, ChemE was insultingly easy (we spent basically the entire semester discussing how what goes INTO a system must also come OUT), so I ... am a masochist, apparently? -_- I assume ChemE gets more interesting eventually. :D
just kept taking classes that actually interested me
I do mildly regret not doing more of that, instead of overloading myself with pretty much all tech classes, all the time. OTOH, I was also busy being pretentious about having a REAL major that would get me a REAL job when I graduated, so perhaps it was for the best. :'D
Thanks for the pointer to your Watchmaker post! I enjoyed reading it. :) Might even wander over and comment one of these days ... :')
Short form:
- Your comments on Grace were interesting and I will need to think about them more
- Your comments on everything else were also interesting and I will need to think about them more too (your exchange with A also has some fun food for thought in it <3)
- Katsu <3333
- I've only read Soulless by Carringer, and was not a fan. But I think that was because it seemed to be going for Regency but didn't ... quite ... hit the tone I expected for Regencies. *shrug emoji* (+ not being deeply into paranormal romance) I've heard E&E is better, but haven't gotten around to giving it a try yet. :)
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-04-02 10:44 pm (UTC)It's very odd, but I was cripplingly shy for a couple of years as a child -- like, it was a tremendous effort of will to ask someone what time it was, or how much the carrots were at a store. I still hate asking for directions or otherwise asking strangers for stuff, although I absolutely don't mind just chatting with strangers. But speaking in front of crowds never bothered me, which is really odd. My brain seems to process it as a different thing entirely, a less unpleasant one. Not the same thing, but my daughter hates performing alone in front of a crowd -- choir is fine, but solos are not, and she doesn't like the idea of doing drama -- but has no problem with public speaking -- she does debate and enjoys school presentations and being a volunteer at the zoo who has to talk/present to people. I would think performance would be easier, because you don't have to come up with your own words? But apparently not for her... Or maybe the coming up with words occuppies enough of her brain that she doesn't fret about being the center of attention... Brains are weird, basically.
Thank you for indulging my random curiosity! :))
(Bay Area is lovely, except for the insane house prices and the traffic. But, well, both are a sign that people want to live here, so I guess it's silly to complain.)
I loved physics as well, and for a while dithered over whether I should do something with that, but the applied side of chemistry seemed more interesting than the applied side of physics -- I didn't like E&M in school so knew I didn't want to do EE, and it seemed like I should have some actual mechanical aptitude for MechE, which I definitely don't have. And I was pretty sure I didn't want to stay in academia, which was confirmed in spates once I got to the college level. I was very happy to jump off after my B.S.
ChemE was insultingly easy (we spent basically the entire semester discussing how what goes INTO a system must also come OUT)[...] -_- I assume ChemE gets more interesting eventually. :D
Ahaha, yeah, the intro to ChemE class is basically a semester of doing nothing but mass balances. It does get more interesting, or at least harder, after that. I really loved Kinetics, and there are some hairy heat and mass transfer and thermodynamics problems. Really, the thing that appealed to me about ChemE was this idea of building processes block by block. Our introductory class emphasized that aspect, as well as doing some "return on investment" game scenarios (you know, you can buy raw materials and equipment to produce chemical A and sell it, with the price of chemical A fluctuating according to supply and demand in the microcosm of the class, and the goal is to optimize your profits). The prof teaching the intro class was really great, and he used materials from a book he was writing rather than anything already on the market, which might've made a difference. A lot of the students in the class were very "WTF is this, where's the chemistry??", but I really liked it.
I flirted with Materials Science for a while in college, courtesy of a really cool professor teaching the mandatory-for-all-engineers intro class, but then I took another MatSci class and it was like ChemE only far more boring, and I realized that the MatSci department had chosen their best prof to teach the mandatory class as a kind of gateway drug. Quite a few of my peers did end up getting 'suckered' into a MatSci minor or double major thanks to him :P
OTOH, I was also busy being pretentious about having a REAL major that would get me a REAL job when I graduated, so perhaps it was for the best. :'D
Haha! But no, you missed out on an opportunity to be pretentious twice over, which is what I was busy doing: I could be smug about having a REAL major with a REAL job with the people in my humanities classes, and be pretentious about taking Medieval Lit and metaphysical poetry, unlike the culturally illiterate nerds in my STEM classes ;D
Re: And the non-bzyki-related comments because I broke the length limit again :D
Date: 2016-04-02 10:45 pm (UTC)I've read the first... three, I think? Alexia books, and I'm not really a fan -- it's one of those series I do keep reading periodically even though it annoys me more than it entertains me. I think one of my biggest problems with it is Alexia's informed ability, where she's supposed to be this brilliant woman, but she keeps being Totally Oblivious! and making really stupid mistakes. And also the "not like other girls" flavor, where Alexia's mother and sisters are awful and silly, and her friend Ivy is useless and silly.
But E&E series is a lot better in this regard -- I actually believe in the friendship between Sophronia and the girls she's going to school with. It's also more properly steampunky, I think? That's not necessarily a draw for me, because I am indifferent to steampunk, but it feels a bit more consistent.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-21 05:10 pm (UTC)I did find that the closer I thought about it when trying to pull together these bullet points, the less impressed I was by some of the author's narrative choices.
We agree on I think all of these questionable choices (except I didn't notice the inconsistent anxiety manifestation thing, which I'll defer to you on), and yet, weirdly, my overall impression of the book seems to be much more positive than yours and K's. It might be a right thing at the right time kind of deal, it might be just that I really love college stories and it has been a long time since I read any, or just clicking with the prose -- I seem to have really clicked with the prose.
Like, she'd make a point of how she always took basically the same path, which was a familiar pattern for me -- but then she just randomly wanders around the English building enough to find a nice place to hang out behind it?
I sailed through this I think because I also always take the same path when I'm going somewhere (in my case, it's because I am absolutely hopeless with directions; K can testify to this, having been victim of my wanderings in SF) but enjoy rambling once I'm in a location I know/don't have to actually be anywhere for a while and have enough time to 'explore'. And as you guys were discussing, with the Starbucks/wandering around Lincoln, I think the anonymity thing would help make the experience a lot less anxiety-inducing (like I had a period where I would be very reluctant to talk to people I saw day to day but whom I didn't know, but happily chatted to strangers at bus stops and on planes when I had the assurance I would be very unlikely to see them again).
WHO REACHES COLLEGE WITHOUT REALIZING IT'S INAPPROPRIATE TO TURN FANFIC IN FOR A CLASS ASSIGNMENT
I think you're seriously overestimating the efficacy of the US education system ;) Seriously, though -- I did think this was very silly, but I didn't find it IMPLAUSIBLE, because I know what else US college students think is appropriate (my husband is a math professor). And her arguments with Piper read a lot like someone who has firmly internalized the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement (and Piper WAS wrong about it being plagiarism, though I could see her seeing it like that, too -- after all, quite a few published authors seem to also) and all the good things about fanfiction from fandom historians and lawyers, and didn't stop to think beyond that. (I do think it woudl've worked better with you suggestion if the assignment had been a sample of best work.)
a looser poly arrangement where she drops in when she's in the mood for dealing with kittens who have gotten their heads stuck in Kleenex boxes :') -- and then flits away again when she gets distracted by some other guy's biceps. :D
This sounds like a fun and fulfilling arrangement for all concerned!
but it's clearly shown to be a general character trait of his that's just exacerbated by his feelings for her, not The World Revolves Around The Protagonist syndrome, and sometimes it does actually come back to bite him. (I was really glad we got to see him upset about doing so badly on that one test.)
Yes, that was a really nice touch!
* Seriously tho, did Cath have to be the jealous type? -_- Especially since it didn't actually have a significant impact on the story, so it felt like it was just there because ... idk, of course the insecure anxious girl is a jealous type? -_-
She didn't come across to me as particularly jealous... Did you mean the thing with the girl in Levi's kitchen, or something else? I got from Cath more that she was afraid of looking like a fool because she was more into someone than they are into her (which played well into her general anxiety) and being afraid for getting emotionally engaged with someone and then losing them (for understandable abandonment trauma reasons), but not really run-of-the-mill jealousy?
continued...
Date: 2016-03-21 05:11 pm (UTC)SAME! It was the family stuff, meaning Cath and her dad, since Wren was largely absent, that elevated the book beyond "cute YA + HP fandom nostalgia" for me.
I was also, actually, glad that their dad didn't seem to appreciably reconcile with her, either - and that he was shown as not wanting to have to deal with it, and actually not having to.
Yes, this was also really nice! I loved his line to Wren when she said she'd tell Laura he said hi: "That's probably not necessary."
* That said, that just made it additionally irritating that we never find out for sure whether she met her self-imposed deadline or not!
This was really frustrating! And in general the ending felt oddly rushed for reasons I don't understand...
I also get the feeling that the entire discussion was there to attempt to set up a meta moral about how happy endings are harder, but more satisfying, than giving up. :P No! This is a story about writing fanfic! Have her briefly consider the notion, throw it out because it's bullshit counter to the entire point of her story thus far
Agreed with all of those points. It was a rather weird blip, and then was completely dropped (apparently?)
Had a minor existential crisis when I was disappointed by Order of the Phoenix after spending years reading 5th year fics?
OotP remains my least favorite book, and I think this is a large part of why :P
surprised that a BNF like Cath didn't have any actual fandom friends [...], but I actually didn't notice that at all while reading - I think because it actually mapped pretty closely to my experience as author of a moderately popular HP fic (and extreme introvert):
Huh! That is a very useful data point to have. (I tend to be quite a bit more extroverted online than in 'real life', and I think my default assumption is that therefore everyone is, but I should remember that is not actually the case.)
I really like your suggestion for the alternate Nick resolution! I agree with you that he doesn't seem to have actually LEARNED anything from the experience, and Cath hasn't either (except that next time she'll probably not get suckered into writing a story she doesn't care about just for the sake of the writing chemistry), which is why it felt like such an arbitrary (and unsatisfying!) resolution, now that you mention it. I much prefer yours.
Speaking of, was it really necessary for her original story to win that spot in the magazine Nick wanted to be in?
This really annoyed me also. Especially since a) when we saw her writing it, it was the early shitty draft where she was just writing anything to get going, and b) the excerpt at the end is very short and not noticeably brilliant in any way? And it seems to move the point away from fan-writing, which I wasn't sure how to interpret that...
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-23 04:10 am (UTC)Bring it on. :D I'm not always great at mustering enough focus to respond in a timely fashion, but I always enjoy reading commentary. :D (And I uh ... apparently still have plenty of words left about Fangirl myself. :D)
weirdly, my overall impression of the book seems to be much more positive than yours and K's
Haha, I actually enjoyed it quite a lot. :D The nice thing about reading with friends is that even the things that had me howling, I could just go wail at K about. And, well. A certain amount of complaining is almost as fun as not having anything to complain about. :DD
(And, sadly, the deeper I get into critical thinking about things I consume, the harder it is to find books with nothing to complain about. :') )
OH WHICH REMINDS ME
Probably the pettiest of my complaints, to the point where I forgot it the first time around:
* The author's occasional tendency towards ending paragraphs of narration with ellipses grated on me. so unnecessary. why.
:')
So - I wouldn't say it was my favorite book ever, but it was a solidly enjoyable read. And I agree with liking the prose - it was in general really breezy and smooth! I probably read this book faster than I have in a while.
I sailed through this I think because I also always take the same path when I'm going somewhere
Haha, I often do too, and usually not for anxiety reasons. :D Though in my case, I've actually got a pretty decent sense of direction; it's more laziness because I've already found one path that works, so why go out of my way to come up with others? :D
So I think I would have breezed past it as well if it hadn't been - I don't remember precisely, but either set up as specifically related to her anxiety issues, or in close enough proximity that I assumed.
I think you're seriously overestimating the efficacy of the US education system ;)
Hahahahahaa OK point taken. :') I am also a graduate of our fine education system :D but I sometimes forget that my experience is still not necessarily the average one, despite having spent a year living with one of the student representatives on my college's anti-plagiarism(? something like that) board...
I think my problem was that Cath gave an impression of having it academically together enough otherwise to NOT make that obvious of a misstep.
My condolences to your husband. :'D
And her arguments with Piper read a lot like someone who has firmly internalized the difference between plagiarism and copyright infringement
Tbh I kind of laughed my way through most of that conversation because it was so obviously an "excuse me while I, the author's mouthpiece, climb on my soapbox" moment. :D
This is actually another thing that I feel like points toward the author having spent her formative fandom years in the ff.net days. I remember all the arguments flying around back then, especially w.r.t. the authors who were anti-fanfic.
(See also: Cath's mention of putting a disclaimer at the beginning of every chapter. Oh, the nostalgia. :') )
From a narrative standpoint, I did appreciate that Piper wasn't Swayed By The Power Of Authorial Soapbox Argument - and also wasn't portrayed as being "bad" for not having done so. Utilizing other characters like Levi and Wren for fanfic-side validation was a nice way to allow the arguments to play out, the characters to maintain the positions that made sense given their characterization, and still demonstrate that it's a nuanced situation.
not really run-of-the-mill jealousy?
Haha, I haaaaaaaaaate jealousy plots so I might have just making snap judgments. I don't remember clearly - I think maybe there were a couple of the scenes with Reagan that rubbed me the wrong way? Like how she went out of her way to negotiate their rules to "no unnecessary jealousy"?
There weren't any big plots - as you mention, most of her negativity was much more inwardly focused - but I feel like there were a couple of times where her narration trended in the run-of-the-mill jealousy direction more than I'd have preferred.
(Though on the subject of the rules - I loved how Reagan just blithely went off and broke several of the rules that she herself had insisted on. :D <3)
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-23 04:13 am (UTC)Just going CATH AND HER DAD <3333 again here, don't mind me. :D
(Though I was actually pretty pleased even by the Wren-related scenes over Christmas, at least from the perspective of Cath and her dad's reactions / interactions. Just wish that Wren had been less one-dimensionally petulant, and that she hadn't done quite as thorough and not-well-supported about-face in the spring semester.)
And in general the ending felt oddly rushed for reasons I don't understand...
*nods* Agreed. I wonder if maybe part of it was that a good chunk of it was devoted to the Cath/Levi relationship? Which, good for them, but maybe that was why the rest of the plot felt ... lighter? More sidelined than previously?
then was completely dropped (apparently?)
I got the vague impression that Cath eventually agreed with Wren? But wouldn't swear to it.
*whines some more about wanting the conclusion of the story to have more to do with finishing Carry On*
OotP remains my least favorite book, and I think this is a large part of why :P
SAME. :D Also maybe just the sheer level of anticipation? After the disappointment of 5, I didn't hype myself nearly as much for 6 and 7, + I feel like I was less invested in post-5th fic than post-4th.
(Well, also I will be forever cranky about Harry and his "stomach monster" in OotP because see: haaaaaating jealousy plots. :') But I'd be willing to believe that that's just me. :') )
This really annoyed me also. Especially since a) when we saw her writing it, it was the early shitty draft where she was just writing anything to get going, and b) the excerpt at the end is very short and not noticeably brilliant in any way? And it seems to move the point away from fan-writing, which I wasn't sure how to interpret that...
Agreed about quality. :D I was especially disappointed because if she was going into original fiction too, did it really have to be middle-America literary nonsense? :'D (Sorry, my biases are showing >.>)
I guess maybe with the Carry On excerpt right before the ofic one, it was supposed to be making the point that you can be/do both? But putting the ofic one last AND making it an award winner really does make it feel like it's "more real" or "more legitimate".
I liked your idea of instead having there be a glowing review of Carry On, or some sign that she kept writing after finishing that project - something that makes clear the impact that her fic writing had, too.
Come to think of it - why didn't we get to see any of the "thank you so much for this fic, it's helped me through dark periods of my life"-style reviews for Carry On? I'd be willing to bet that it got them. And sometimes they're exactly what the fic writer needs, too, when they're wondering whether it's even worth it - which I'd also be willing to bet Cath wrestled with once or twice, especially given how badly she spiraled after some of those conversations with Piper.
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-23 11:40 am (UTC)Or, as CP shows, even if I have managed to completely overlook that on reading for reasons of reading the emotional high, the reread totally brings too many things into sharp focus *sigh* at least with bullshit like CC you know where you stand.
My condolences to your husband. :'D
*replays fond memories of trashtalking everything and anything with the said husband, who firmly thinks he doesn't deserve this* :D <3
"excuse me while I, the author's mouthpiece, climb on my soapbox" moment. :D
pfft yeah, that was very rehearsed. also, +1 to Prof Piper not being swayed argument.
I feel like I should say this bc otherwise it looks like I hated Fangirl - I didn't :D Seeing how I read it in one sitting, it would be a big fat lie if I said it wasn't an enjoyable read. It's just I didn't like Cath - which bleeds into my general lack on enthusiasm and also exacerbates wanting to pick at loose threads, I guess. All of this criticism might lead you to believe that Carry On, which I'm rather fond and protective of, is a better book from craft point of view - but it isn't, I think, it's just simply a book I liked better because I liked its characters better.
Re:jealousy, there were bits here and there, re:Reagan and the other girl and Cath being possessive in her Levi schmoop, to borrow the word XD But not enough to warrant a rant from me, at least.
Also <33 to Reagan breaking her own rules. Seriously, REAGAN <3
"stomach monster" in OotP
excuse me, it was a chest monster, which is likely a certified and trademark-protected thing at this point :'DD
did it really have to be middle-America literary nonsense? :'D
Pls apply aloe vera to this burnnnnn XDD
why didn't we get to see any of the "thank you so much for this fic, it's helped me through dark periods of my life"-style reviews for Carry On
*nods to this* maybe if not instead of the original story excerpt, if she really wanted that middle america nonsense with STOLEN 2nd PERSON POV, but at least after it? to show continuity?
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-23 08:07 pm (UTC)This is an accurate summary, yes XD
"stomach monster" in OotP
excuse me, it was a chest monster
Ahaha, I didn't even notice it was a monster dwelling in the wrong body part until this point XD
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-28 03:52 am (UTC)Also :O :O :O I can't believe I've been ranting about the wrong body part! for *looks up publishing date* 13 YEARS now!
(lol I had also forgotten that OotP was NEARLY 800 PAGES, no wonder it felt like a slog. :') )
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-23 09:17 pm (UTC)No worries about this! I love having rambling multi-threaded conversations like this while they last, so both replies days/weeks/whatever later and having said conversations naturally peter out are totally cool with me :)
The nice thing about reading with friends is that even the things that had me howling, I could just go wail at K about.
Yess, that is a great thing about synch reading!
A certain amount of complaining is almost as fun as not having anything to complain about. :DD
That is also true! As is the comment about critical thinking, and I find that, yeah, it's not that there are books where there is nothing at all to complain about, but more that some books manage to break through a barrier where the things that might normally annoy me or are objectively not as good are left far, far below while I'm floating on a euphoric cloud of squee. :)
* The author's occasional tendency towards ending paragraphs of narration with ellipses grated on me. so unnecessary. why.
Haha, I had to go back and see how prevalent this was. I have a tendency to do that myself, I'm afraid, so it just feels normal to me XD
I probably read this book faster than I have in a while.
Definitely true for me as well, normalizing for length!
I am also a graduate of our fine education system :D
Ah, I didn't realize that! But in any case, yeah, the level of college prep varies widely, and I could kind of see somebody like Cath, who was academically gifted but sheltered, thinking this might be an OK thing to do with a professor who already liked her. I guess it would be fairest to stay that I found the setup artificial and eyebrow-raise-y, but not outright suspension-of-disbelief destroying. But it was definitely not something I'd expected her to do!
most of that conversation because it was so obviously an "excuse me while I, the author's mouthpiece, climb on my soapbox" moment. :D
Hah, yes. And the disclaimers as being symptomatic of Those Days in fandom. I never hung out on FF.net (the interface is AWFUL), but fandom on LJ was very similar in regard to disclaimers and earnest arguments about copyright vs plagiarism vs fanfic.
But the timing feels about right -- though definitely more right for the Harry Potter releases than the Simon Snow ones shifted by some 4-5 years. I had to look it up, but looks like AO3 started up in very late 2009 (but broad adoption didn't happen till a few years later?), and I feel like even in early 2012 some non-negligible portion of fandom was still in places other than Tumblr -- at least for book fandoms, where the ease of graphic posts wasn't that much of a draw.
I did appreciate that Piper wasn't Swayed By The Power Of Authorial Soapbox Argument - and also wasn't portrayed as being "bad" for not having done so.
Same! And I was worried that Piper, being anti-fanfic, might head down the hyperbolic anti-fanfic avenues like Robin Hobb and others have done, so was happy when they got to the "agree to disagree" thing and moved on.
Like how she went out of her way to negotiate their rules to "no unnecessary jealousy"?
Ah! I know what you mean then. I was trying to think of Cath being, like, real-time jealous, which I think didn't happen, but with Reagan, and all that stuff about being awake or "who broke him in" and all that, that was definitely there. It didn't bother me because I felt like it fit in the context of the way Cath thinks about Reagan in general, as formidable and awesome (I kind of liked the "apples and grapefruit" line, cliche as it was). So it did not feel like being jealous because Levi might want to go back to Regan/might like Reagan more -- I actually thought the book was refreshingly free of that trope -- but more like feeling very aware of the very strong and important past between Levi and Reagan, and being sort of generally jealous of the kind of confident and fearless person Reagan is. I don't think I'm articulating it at all well, and it's kind of a fine distinction, but I guess jealousy bothers me when it's a question of a character not trusting the person they're with, and this didn't feel like that, so I was OK with it.
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-28 04:37 am (UTC)Agreed! Sadly, even those feel like they're getting harder to find. These days usually "On balance, I really enjoyed that, despite all these problems" is usually as far as I get.
SO SATISFYING when I find a book that blows all that away, though. :)
Haha, I had to go back and see how prevalent this was. I have a tendency to do that myself, I'm afraid, so it just feels normal to me XD
Not at all prevalent, which just made the complaint feel more petty. :D
I love abusing ellipses in dialogue, but something about using it in paragraphs of description just rubbed me the wrong way. :P (Maybe it's just that it immediately threw my brain into cranky editor mode. :D Which always takes a few pages to come back from ...)
But the timing feels about right -- though definitely more right for the Harry Potter releases than the Simon Snow ones shifted by some 4-5 years. I had to look it up, but looks like AO3 started up in very late 2009 (but broad adoption didn't happen till a few years later?), and I feel like even in early 2012 some non-negligible portion of fandom was still in places other than Tumblr -- at least for book fandoms, where the ease of graphic posts wasn't that much of a draw.
*nods* My guess, though, is that consciously or unconsciously she was drawing mostly on her own fandom roots (likely in the ff.net / LJ era) rather than trying to base it on serious research of The Current State of Fandom Interactions in 2011. :D
And I was worried that Piper, being anti-fanfic, might head down the hyperbolic anti-fanfic avenues like Robin Hobb and others have done, so was happy when they got to the "agree to disagree" thing and moved on.
Yes! I was very relieved when that happened. Or, rather, didn't happen.
It's always sad to find out that authors I otherwise like are anti-fanfic. Luckily Robin Hobb is not one of them (I pushed my way through her first trilogy and was ... not engaged. Came to it 10 years too late, maybe), but one of my other favorite authors is, if of the "do what you like, but not to our characters" variety. :\
I guess jealousy bothers me when it's a question of a character not trusting the person they're with, and this didn't feel like that, so I was OK with it.
Hmm, that's a good point, and in general I agree that the lack of trust is the important part. I was definitely glad to see that they were only brief spurts, and that they didn't materially affect the relationships in question.
I think maybe my negative reaction had a two-fold source?
1) Seeing that set up made me brace for and get pre-emptively grumbly about a full jealousy plot that never really materialized
2) Once I recognized that it wasn't going to materialize, the jealous feelings felt tacked on and pointless, since they weren't actually building up to anything.
It does definitely seem in character, though, now that you mention it. So I guess this ends up boiling down to residual "but why that character" grumbling on my part. ^^;
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-28 08:16 pm (UTC)Indeed! For me, I think the last one that just went straight to clouds of squee was Rivers of London/Midnight Riot, and Naomi Novik's Uprooted came fairly close, but it's such a personal and subjective thing, I know the same has not necessarily been true for the friends I rec'd them to, though it was for some, and there's no better feeling in the world :)
My guess, though, is that consciously or unconsciously she was drawing mostly on her own fandom roots (likely in the ff.net / LJ era) rather than trying to base it on serious research of The Current State of Fandom Interactions in 2011. :D
Yeah, I think that's very likely, with a hand-wve that it could still be plausible four years later -- it definitely feels more natural/organic to the LJ/FFN/pre-Tumblr era.
Luckily Robin Hobb is not one of them (I pushed my way through her first trilogy and was ... not engaged. Came to it 10 years too late, maybe),
I liked Hobb's first trilogy (the FitzChivalry books) well enough, although I did feel like I'd come to them a bit too late, and got 2/3 of the ay into the epic Liveship Traders one, but then my interest sort of petered out, and I wasn't able to get very far into her later books. This coincided with me finding out her feelings on fanfic, but it's hard for me to say at this point whether there's some causation in that correlation. She was never OMG my favorite author ever, and I think other people have found her later books less interesting than the earlier ones, so these might just be totally independent things. But I guess i feel less sad about my waning interest in her books given that I know her attitude towards fanfic is really ridiculous.
but one of my other favorite authors is, if of the "do what you like, but not to our characters" variety. :\
Oh, which author? This sounds sort of similar to what I've heard about Anne McCaffrey allowing for the Pern books (which I myself have not read), and I don't think I've heard that sort of stance from other authors...
1) Seeing that set up made me brace for and get pre-emptively grumbly about a full jealousy plot that never really materialized
That totally makes sense, and I know I have hyper-reactions like that to things that I've seen done badly one too many times :P
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-04-02 07:23 am (UTC)Uprooted is actually coming up pretty soon on my reading list! I enjoyed the first 4-5 Temeraire books (before I got distracted and wandered away) and I've heard good things, so I've got hopes. :)
I have a deep love of Martha Wells' Raksura books that I think comes close to that level of squee, but it's been several years since I read them, so the intensity has worn down somewhat.
N.K. Jemisin's The Fifth Season also blew me away, both with my enjoyment of reading it and my writer's appreciation of HOW U STRUCTURE LIKE THAT TEACH ME YOUR SECRETSSSS. (It's also the only book other than Warchild in which second person POV has actually worked for me.)
(P.S. Warchild <3)
But I guess i feel less sad about my waning interest in her books given that I know her attitude towards fanfic is really ridiculous.
In my case, I've got a couple of friends who are HUGE FANS. They seem to think the last couple of books have been really good, but not sure I'll ever make it there. :D
I have wondered, since I learned about her feelings on fanfic long before I read any of her books, whether knowing that has any impact on my enjoyment of the story. I don't think so?
Especially since I read and enjoyed at least one of Sharon Lee and Steve Miller's Liaden books after finding out their attitude towards fanfiction. (They're the ones I referenced before) I've found that I still really enjoy their books, but have a much harder time convincing myself to start reading a new one because I'm just ... sad.
Oh, which author? This sounds sort of similar to what I've heard about Anne McCaffrey allowing for the Pern books (which I myself have not read), and I don't think I've heard that sort of stance from other authors...
Interesting! Hadn't realized that about Pern. :) (Which - haha, come to think of it, in fifth grade I wrote and turned in a story for English class that was essentially a self-insert Pern fanfic :') So perhaps I shouldn't be throwing stones at Cath after all. :D)
Pern was probably one of my first real fandoms, so I still harbor a lot of nostalgic love for it, but it's also one of those series that I haven't gone back and re-read because I have a sneaking suspicion that certain parts of it might not have aged terribly well. :P
Re: attitudes towards fanfic, I might have misspoken above; what I meant was that Sharon Lee and Steve Miller's attitude was (as far as I can recall) "other people can do / allow what they like with the worlds they've created, but we personally do not want any fanfiction set in our world / with our characters".
So, definitely not the sort of rabid denunciation some folks have made, but still a very clear line in the sand w.r.t. their own work.
Which they have every right to do, of course. It's just ... sad. :P
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-04-02 09:46 pm (UTC)This is really interesting to me! K read the book and was bugged by Peter's "unrepentant sexuality" too, but I never even noticed it. Or, like, I noticed it, but must've just filed it under "normal young guy, check". Though possibly I was just too distracted by Nightingale and my embarrassingly sudden crush on him :P
I enjoy the Temeraire series, but I do think the books kind of go downhill after book 5, so if you've read Victory of Eagles, you're probably not missing much. Uprooted was different, and better, which came as a pleasant surprise. I hope you enjoy it, if/when you do read it!
I have a deep love of Martha Wells' Raksura books that I think comes close to that level of squee,
This was another one that came close for me when I read it, two years ago. Well, I only read "Cloud Roads" so far; I want to continue, but my library doesn't have the later books, and they're pricey on Amazon, so I've been keeping an eye on them in the hopes of a sale. I did just pick up a bunch of other Martha Wells books when they had deals on them, and intend to dive in. I'm a big fan of dragon-people, so Cloud Roads was Relevant to my Interests, and I loooved Stone :D
I have been hearing really impressive things about The Fifth Season! I read the first two Kingdoms books by Jemisin and was underwhelmed, but the people on my flist raving about The Fifth Season had similarly not bee that impressed with the earlier books, so I definitely want to check it out now!
(Which - haha, come to think of it, in fifth grade I wrote and turned in a story for English class that was essentially a self-insert Pern fanfic :') So perhaps I shouldn't be throwing stones at Cath after all. :D)
Hee! :D (though, yeah, definitely more forgiveable in fifth grade than in an upper-div course in college :P)
I have heard that McCaffrey allowed fanfiction set in her universe, so long as her actual characters were not used -- so, it just had to be populated by OCs. So your self-insert would probably actually have been fine by her! (Or maybe it also had to be set in other time periods? This is all second-hand, but I have it from an LJ friend who was active in the Pern zines at the time, so she would know.)
And, yeah, from what I hear, Pern is not a fandom that ages well, so you and your nostalgia are probably better off without a reread :)
I've heard about Liaden, and things that have made me want to check it out, though I don't know terribly much about it.
So, definitely not the sort of rabid denunciation some folks have made, but still a very clear line in the sand w.r.t. their own work.
Ah, yeah, that's different than what I thought you were saying. And something I can respect I guess -- though still totally unenforceable. But much better than the "writing fanfiction is like raping my children" attitude that some other authors seem to espouse...
BTW, I'd like to friend you, if you don't mind? I feel like we have enough to talk about ;)
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-04-03 02:37 am (UTC)Hopefully the "sure, go ahead" was implicit in my friending you just now, but - Sure, go ahead. :D (Tho I warn you, my journal has spent most of its existence in pretty deep mothballs. :D)
Or, like, I noticed it, but must've just filed it under "normal young guy, check".
*Nods* My intellectual reaction was "this is a presumably fairly accurate representation of an allosexual young man, which we don't see terribly often. (As opposed to e.g. tropey things about barmaids or whatev.) That's kind of cool", but on the other, my gut reaction was pretty solidly in the UGH CAN WE MOVE ON range. :')
I want to continue, but my library doesn't have the later books, and they're pricey on Amazon, so I've been keeping an eye on them in the hopes of a sale
Argh, I have a feeling there just was one, too, in celebration of NEW RAKSURA BOOK IN THREE DAYS I AM SO EXCITE. :D <3
FWIW, she's pretty active on Tumblr -- marthawells. Relatively high traffic, mostly reblogs of SFF geekery with a side of social justice and posts about anxiety/depression. But she also posts about sales etc. when they happen. (She has a Patreon, too, which I keep thinking about joining, but ... figuring out new things always seems to drop to the bottom of my list, so. :P)
... Speaking of attitudes towards fanfic ... let's just say that I saw some Yuletide reblogs from her tumblr to the tune of PSSST RAKSURA QUALIFIES. :D <3 (Tho I think, for the usual obvious reasons, she doesn't read it herself.)
Anyway - if I see another sale go by, I'll try to remember to send it your way. :)
I did just pick up a bunch of other Martha Wells books when they had deals on them, and intend to dive in.
Ooh, let me know what you think!
Of the rest of her backlog, I've actually only read the two Emilie books (solidly enjoyed the first, LOVED the second), because the rest I keep reserving for a rainy day and never getting around to. :P Someday!!
I loooved Stone :D
Who doesn't, really? :DD I think Chime is probably my favorite character, then maybe Moon, for reasons of feeeeeelsssss, but Stone's complete lack of fucks to give is glorious and beautiful and makes him a very close third. :D
I read the first two Kingdoms books by Jemisin and was underwhelmed, but the people on my flist raving about The Fifth Season had similarly not bee that impressed with the earlier books, so I definitely want to check it out now!
*nods* I was ... intellectually approving of but emotionally distant from? maybe? the Inheritance trilogy. Though the third book was probably my favorite, FWIW. I'd like to go back and poke at them again someday, because it's one of the strongest instances of "I feel like I should be much more engaged in this than I actually am" that I can remember experiencing, so it would be interesting to see if I could figure out a bit more about why. (The two Dreamblood books are still on my "someday, probably" reading list.)
But whatever she did differently with Fifth Season, it REALLY worked for me. Next book is apparently due out in August, I'm really interested to see how I feel about that one. :)
I've heard about Liaden, and things that have made me want to check it out, though I don't know terribly much about it.
It was hands-down my favorite space opera for a long time. :) (I also really enjoyed the Vorkosigan saga, but petered out from Miles overdose around book 9 or 10 :P)
Prooooobably still is, honestly, as much as I enjoy Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch trilogy (have you read those yet? If not, feel free to consider that another rec I'm throwing at your head. :D), just because there's so much more of it, and most of it really hits the spot w.r.t. interesting characters and cultural conflicts and ... idk, grandness?
... If only they didn't have those attitudes towards fic. ;__;
(Re: enforcability, the post I read did acknowledge that, too - basically said "we know we can't stop you, but we'd really rather you didn't")
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-04-03 06:34 am (UTC)(Conversely, my LJ tends to be long posts all over, but I'm totally cool with people skipping over the RL stuff or the fannish stuff or reading and not commenting or periodically showing up after months-long absence to engage in tl;dr on ancient posts -- it's all good! :)
Ooh, yes, I would definitely appreciate a tip-off about a Martha Wells sale! And am going to go friend her on Tumblr, but my Tumblr presence is super-sporadic so that's probably not actually going to be that much help.
Let's see, I bought Element of Fire, Death of the Necromancer, and the first of the Fall of Ile-Rien books, which had all been recommended to me at various times. I actually hadn't heard of the Emilie books, though I see them among her books now. We'll see how it all goes!
Stone's complete lack of fucks to give is glorious and beautiful
Yes. Yes it is! Chime is my second favorite, and then prooobably Jade -- she seems to have inherited some of Stone's snark, which I find welcome. But I like Moon too, in a similar way as Stone does.
I was ... intellectually approving of but emotionally distant from? maybe? the Inheritance trilogy.
It was this for me, with a side of "what am I missing that everyone else seems to be loving this on a visceral level?" I have the same thing with Seanan McGuire, and it almost feels like being on a different wavelength as an author and their fans. So the "I feel like I should be much more engaged in this than I actually am" you mentioned is something I can em,pathize with very well. (I do think a fair bit of the first Inheritance book especially is pretty id-driven, and that whole thing left me entirely cold.) I haven't read the third book because I love trickster gods, but I wasn't sure I could handle a trickster god book done 'on a different wavelength' -- that just felt like it would be very frustrating. But if you liked it best, maybe it's worth going back to...
(I also really enjoyed the Vorkosigan saga, but petered out from Miles overdose around book 9 or 10 :P)
It is entirely possible to overdose on Miles! :P The Vorkosigan Saga is currently-and-for-the-last-15-years my favorite sci-fi, but I definitely had to take a break after reading a bunch in a row. Fortunately, I found that both coming back to the series and rereading was quite rewarding.
Actually, I'm pretty sure my interest in the Liaden universe was sparked by people who were Vorkosigan fans, as I tend to find that a really handy fandom for identifying series with crossover appeal, as in, I have a good likelihood of enjoying whatever other Vorkosigan fans also enjoy. :)
I've read Ancillary Justice and really liked it (though it's not a flawless book, it's a really, really neat one!), but not the last two books yet. I definitely intend to, but reviews of the second book were somewhat less enthused than the first one, so I put it off a bit, and then a bit more. I will read the rest of it before long, though!
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-23 09:32 pm (UTC)Haha, yes, that was a great touch! Reagan in general was just awesomely fun throughout.
Just going CATH AND HER DAD <3333 again here, don't mind me. :D
I am so with you! And I agree that Wren in the family context was pretty well done, but, the more I talk about Wren, the more I wish there's been a companion book from Wren's POV that would give her an arc with actual depth and subtlety and stuff.
I wonder if maybe part of it was that a good chunk of it was devoted to the Cath/Levi relationship? Which, good for them, but maybe that was why the rest of the plot felt ... lighter? More sidelined than previously?
This is an excellent point, and I think you're right. And, heck, maybe it's even intentional, because it is certainly plausible that an 18-year-old in her first serious relationship would be focused on THAT more than the other things. But seeing as the other things were what I'd liked best about the book in the first place, it was definitely a disappointment to me.
After the disappointment of 5, I didn't hype myself nearly as much for 6 and 7, + I feel like I was less invested in post-5th fic than post-4th.
That's probably true, too. I was much more wary after OotP, and though I enjoyed books 6 and 7 -- HBP is one of my favorites, actually, maybe #3 after PoA and the first one -- it was definitely from the vantage point of knowing that the series could disappoint me.
For fic, my relationship with it vs the different books is confounded by the fact that after PoA/GoF I was really into Marauders fic, and Sirius's death in OotP put a real damper on that for me, as well as for a lot of the authors who were writing Marauders fic. So there was less of it, and I was enjoying it less, and sort of resentfully, knowing there were no even slightly happyish endings.
The stomach/chest monster was ridiculous, and I was not a fan of how JKR wrote Harry/Ginny in general, even though I'm not at all opposed to it as a ship and frequently enjoyed it in fic.
because if she was going into original fiction too, did it really have to be middle-America literary nonsense? :'D (Sorry, my biases are showing >.>)
*snerk* Yeah. I mean, I share your biases, and I guess it was established, via conversation with Piper, that Cath didn't want to create her own WORLDS, but there are other options besides that and middle-America literary nonsense. I would guess that historical fiction might work for someone who enjoys the immersion and writing around established events that fanfic entails (though that was already Piper's thing, I guess, and it's not like Cath had time to do research in the 24 hours she had left herself, or whatever). So I guess my problem is just really with the award at the end that bothers me, because, as you say, that makes it feal more real/more legitimate by authorial validation.
why didn't we get to see any of the "thank you so much for this fic, it's helped me through dark periods of my life"-style reviews for Carry On
Ohhh, I really like this idea! Because, actually, that's one of the amazing things about fic, that something which starts out 'derivative' can have such a profound impact on someone (and it absolutely can), and I think it would've been good for Cath to hear it, sort of as a reminder that she's not the only one struggling. And it would be nicely validating of fandom as a valid coping strategy, too, not just on the writing side but on the reading side, too. Also, I feel like this is part of the same weirdness where Cath has no fandom friends -- the importance of Carry On seems to be measured by the hits, which, OK, is valid, but again kind of impersonal. I mean, there's that in-person meeting with the girl at the library, which I liked, but it's not like people on the internet don't express actual emotions about things that are important to them. (Maybe it's an intentional authorial choice, so the "real life" would feel realer by comparison, but IDK, still weird.)
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-28 09:30 am (UTC)I think that would definitely have been an interesting addition (and agree with the point I think you made ...somewhere. About her being offscreen basically the entire time meaning that there's plenty of room for different content).
I also suspect that it's a book that I'd have bounced off with a vengeance unless very carefully done. Because while I can see myself very easily sympathizing with the "I'm not going to break" attitude you postulated, her level of self-destructiveness would probably not mesh as well for me, and her chosen poisons being sex, alcohol, and parties would be actively off-putting. :D
(It would have been nice to see to what extent she was still interested in / invested in / involved in fandom, though. I wonder if there was maybe a certain level of wanting to back away from fandom because Cath being so famed in it made it feel like "her thing"? And if that was part of why she was at least on the surface making such a point of pushing herself away?)
For fic, my relationship with it vs the different books is confounded by the fact that after PoA/GoF I was really into Marauders fic, and Sirius's death in OotP put a real damper on that for me, as well as for a lot of the authors who were writing Marauders fic. So there was less of it, and I was enjoying it less, and sort of resentfully, knowing there were no even slightly happyish endings.
Haha I haven't looked at it in years, but I remember putting a long, reassuring, NO I'M STILL CONTINUING THIS GUYSS note at the front of my long post-4th-year fic. :') (Tho it was time-travel MWPP, so the only effect the 5th book really had on the plot was that I was pleased that James really had turned out to be kind of an asshole + irritated at JKR for going with Cartoonish-Evil-Minion-In-Training as Peter characterization :DD)
As a reader I was mostly fond of MWPP fic of the current-gen-time-travels-back/travels-to-an-everyone-lives-AU sub-category, but now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like I also noticed the decline in interest. (Less the resentment, though, since the entire point of time travel / AU fics of that variety was generally to fix things so that there could be happy endings after all. :D)
I was not a fan of how JKR wrote Harry/Ginny in general, even though I'm not at all opposed to it as a ship and frequently enjoyed it in fic.
My distaste for how she wrote Harry/Ginny, and in general her characterization of Ginny, put me off even fic of them for YEARSSSS. Though looking back, I feel like probably a large chunk of that was because whenever I encountered fic, it was of the TWU WUV variety, which completely bypassed/minimized the fact that it started out as a hero worship crush, which deeply bothered me.
I really like Ginny now, although I still feel like if JKR wanted to grow her personality that drastically, it would have helped to have had at least a few more hints of that growth in previous books. Even taking into account Harry's observational skills or lack thereof. :D But I'm not sure I'll ever come around to actively liking Harry/Ginny (except possibly in the context of really good fic that I'll probably never read because I haven't been actively interested in the fandom in years. :') )
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-28 09:31 am (UTC)Agreed. :D Though I'm not convinced that Cath is necessarily permanently against creating her own worlds - IIRC the things she said could also be interpreted as something similar to the "I don't think I want to create my own worlds because it sounds hard and scary and I don't believe I'm capable of it" phase that I went through before my stubbornness kicked in and I decided to start trying anyway. :D
The latter is how I interpreted it, but that might just be my own biases talking again. :) I feel like if she was deeply against original worldbuilding, she'd probably be against non-memoir original fic in general. Even middle-America literary nonsense requires its own sort of worldbuilding, after all. :D Tho it's true that historical fiction is more like fanfic, so maybe ...
Hmmm, re: the award, I wonder if what happened was that the author really wanted to have that bit of original fic there to drive home the point that Cath had "broken through" some of her issues and was moving on, but felt like it would look too bare if just tagged with idk "Excerpt from story that Cath shoved under Professor Piper's door"? And that's where the "lol she can get the award Nick failed to get" came in?
I mean, there's that in-person meeting with the girl at the library, which I liked, but it's not like people on the internet don't express actual emotions about things that are important to them.
Tbh I was pretty lukewarm about that. It was fun, but it also felt a bit strained.
This might just be my remaining sour grapes at having hoped the same thing would happen to me in college with my moderately-popular HP fic and being sadly disappointed, tho. :D But then, I never had T-shirts for my fic, so maybe that was my mistake. :D
... Come to think of it, even just having T-shirts is a sign of a pretty deeply engaged fandom. So the lack of comment discussion feels even more obvious.
(Maybe it's an intentional authorial choice, so the "real life" would feel realer by comparison, but IDK, still weird.)
It would fit with the theme of growing ... not really out of the person you were before college, but I guess to realize that that's not the be-all, end-all? that seems to have been threaded throughout this book. But idk either. :)
Re: continued...
Date: 2016-03-28 08:31 pm (UTC)TBH, I probably would, too, for the same reason. Because, yeah, reading about sex, alcohol, and parties would be off-putting and also just plain BORING to me. I mean, it's probably possible to make it not be that with internal monologues and other things happening in between the drinking-induced blackouts -- her behind-the-scenes involvement in fandom, like you say -- but, yeah, it would have to be carefully done...
+ irritated at JKR for going with Cartoonish-Evil-Minion-In-Training as Peter characterization
I'm still not over how badly Peter's whole arc was done, from the way he never really seems like part of the MWPP group the same way the other three are in the flashbacks to the fizzled redemption arc (not that JKR is that great with redemption in general; it doesn't seem to be a thing she believes in, just expiation via death, at best...) But that is neither here nor there... *sigh*
MWPP fic of the current-gen-time-travels-back/travels-to-an-everyone-lives-AU sub-category
You know, I don't think I've ever read any of those, actually! (It's funny how insular even a large fandom can be... I didn't realize there was such a subgenre, though it doesn't surprise me.)
although I still feel like if JKR wanted to grow her personality that drastically, it would have helped to have had at least a few more hints of that growth in previous books. Even taking into account Harry's observational skills or lack thereof. :D
Yeah, there are definitely better ways of managing this than the way it was done. Though I suppose that's one of the pitfalls of writing a long series -- you can't go back and fine-tune the earlier volumes when it turns out you've lost your readers along the way...
"I don't think I want to create my own worlds because it sounds hard and scary and I don't believe I'm capable of it" phase that I went through before my stubbornness kicked in and I decided to start trying anyway. :D
Ah, interesting! For me, worldbuilding was always the more interesting/easier part, so my early experiments with fanfiction (I've never written it for actual serious consumption) was stuff like a magpie-assembled world full of my own worldbuilding and bits of stolen worldbuilding from other places, which was all archetypal anyway, populated by OC's and "rescued" canonical characters from a bunch of worlds, and the plots were just kind of... there to play around with the worldbuilding. So I found Cath's POV on this difficult to empathize with.
I wonder if what happened was that the author really wanted to have that bit of original fic there to drive home the point that Cath had "broken through" some of her issues and was moving on, but felt like it would look too bare if just tagged with idk "Excerpt from story that Cath shoved under Professor Piper's door"
This makes a lot of sense, and you know, I probably wouldn't even mind if it was PUBLISHED in the prestigious journal or whatever, but I do still wish that fanfic had gotten the last word, so to speak.
But then, I never had T-shirts for my fic, so maybe that was my mistake. :D
Aww, haha! I was kind of expecting the meeting with the library fangirl to maybe GO somewhere -- Cath getting to know her IRL, maybe, as a symmetrical strand to introducing RL people like Levi to fanfic -- but it never did, so that became kind of a pointless interlude.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-22 08:59 am (UTC)Admit it, you just have too many Tam Lin feelings :D
I had a period where I would be very reluctant to talk to people I saw day to day but whom I didn't know, but happily chatted to strangers at bus stops and on planes when I had the assurance I would be very unlikely to see them again
This is somehow really easily imaginable to me, too. Mostly because for some mysterious reason at work the majority of people see me as a Function and Excellence and also Source Of Wisdom On Serious Subjects (god knows why) and that makes me slyther in into that role and become boring as unsalted meat. (Self-fulfilling prophecy?) Which makes me not want to talk to them, and only perk up if it's someone from the outside - stranger or not, doesn't matter.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-22 06:21 pm (UTC)That is definitely a true statement!
That is interesting that extroverts experience this weird catharsis too -- I wouldn't have thought so, necessarily!
no subject
Date: 2016-03-23 04:22 am (UTC)Function and Excellence and also Source Of Wisdom On Serious Subjects (god knows why)
Common sense and English. :D Also, my condolences. :') Best thing about my new job is that I am not The Expert On Everything anymore. <3
Though FWIW, I feel like "work mode" is its own distinct thing, potentially somewhat separate from levels of relative introversion / extroversion? I can easily see having to deal with Work People about Work Things being exhausting for an extrovert too.
become boring as unsalted meat
:') That is when you should come talk Quality Lit with us again to recharge. :D
no subject
Date: 2016-03-23 11:49 am (UTC)Common sense and English. :D
That .__. Just yesterday, for example, I solved a problem that was so dumb it was a physical effort not to stare into the camera: until i intervened, people had actually almost gotten an HQ clearance not to do a thing which they didn't have to do in the first place... in the system, which has been in force for months now!! I am beautiful and do not deserve this.
Or wait, the same day I had to explain to an HR chick now to do her job. No, unironically - she set up a f2f meeting with me so I could tell her things "if you can't choose between two providers, make them do a test task and compare" and "don't come up to higher ups without a proposed solution bc they won't care" :') :') :') WHY ME WHY THIS.
tldr, I tend to agree re:work mode likely being a separate thing. and YES TO RECHARGING WITH QUALITY STUFF <3
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Date: 2016-03-23 05:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-03-23 11:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-03-28 05:24 am (UTC)But it occurs to me that this sounds a lot like how I felt returning home for Christmas, especially those first several years after college - I'd try to squeeze myself back into my high school / college "mold" because I felt like that was how I was "supposed" to behave.
(It was also largely unconscious at first? Which I still find fascinating! Brains are so weirdddd.)
But yeah, it's very tiring. And irritating. And moreso, the bigger the gap is, I'd guess. :P